2015 2.0 L Coolant Loss - Dealer Trying to Trick Me?

3277 Views 72 Replies 12 Participants Last post by MOONRNR, 5 d ago

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · 29 d ago (Edited)

So I took my Escape in for service for a transmission leak, engine splash guard fasteners needing replaced, noticed coolant had begun disappearing when it never used to, some other minor things. I was worried I might have one of the EcoBoost engines with the stupid design, but most everything says that's in the 2016 and newer models. Advisor called me today and says they looked at the coolant issue first and found coolant in two of my cylinders coming from the head (so apparently I do have the stupid design in my vehicle). He then also claimed I was outside the recall window. Thing is, I bought this from a Ford dealership, and I never received a recall notice for it. Seems to me if it had the bad block, I should've received that or it should've been taken care of. The Advisor also claimed it was something they can't know by VIN, etc. which also sounds like a load of crap. Of course the replacement block is on major back-order, blah blah blah, I can see this is already headed towards suggesting getting a new vehicle, which I cannot afford.

Basically, I need to know if I am being BSed. Any useful advice on how to move forward with this would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Okay, so it appears there is no recall on this issue (even though it seems there should be) so I have no idea why the advisor even mentioned that. It also appears the info I had that it normally affects 2016 and newer is wrong too, as it can happen on older 1.5L and 2.0L engines as well. Cool.

21 - 40 of 73 Posts

NickSP

· #21 · 27 d ago

wiz043 said:
That faulty block design began late 2016 and then on to mid 2019 by reports..

OP has a 2015. I've also read at least 2 posts somewhere of pre 2015 coolant leaks.

Reactions: 2

dilbertescape

· #22 · 27 d ago

NickSP said:
Is the orange coolant destroying only the Escape engines? If the orange coolant was the problem, it should have been a problem with a whole bunch of Ford cars across the board. Not trying to question you but simply raising a question.

The orange coolant destroys radiators and heater cores on a few models. Not sure how many models ran into coolant intrusion.

20-2150 Ford Technical Service Bulletin

20-2150 Ford Technical Service Bulletin

www.tsbsearch.com

www.tsbsearch.com

Reactions: 1

MOONRNR

· #23 · 27 d ago

OK, here it is in a nutshell ...

The advisor said he did not know which 2 cylinders (as he had said in the call to tell me about it, the paperwork doesn't mention number of cylinders, just "cylinders") the tech found intrusion in, and it's not noted on the paperwork. The tech notes say "verified low coolant. pressure tested and found the coolant leaking into the engine cylinders.

The DEALER IS INCOMPETENT. You paid for a diagnosis and the tech couldn't write on the work order which cylinder(s) were defective? The SERVICE ADVISOR could not get up off his dead a$$ to go to the tech and ask? And they think you are going to trust them to replace the engine?

Your engine is the VALENCIA SPAIN 2.0L semi-open deck design which seemed to have few failures. There is a tear-down video showing dis-assembly of one (coolant intrusion concerns) and what was found was the coolant (ORANGE) having becoming caustic and eating away at the aluminum head and block surfaces and complete disintegration of the head gasket.

This is where you stand. To tear one down to find the cause is going to be expensive. And then if found the block is not saveable, you are looking at another engine after the labor to tear down the engine.

Comments?

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MOONRNR

· #24 · 27 d ago

dilbertescape said:
The orange coolant destroys radiators and heater cores on a few models. Not sure how many models ran into coolant intrusion.

20-2150 Ford Technical Service Bulletin

20-2150 Ford Technical Service Bulletin

www.tsbsearch.com

QUOTE FROM TSB -

"This article supersedes TSB 20-2090 to update the production fix date.

Issue: Some 2015-2019 Transit vehicles built on or before 31-Dec-2018 and some 2017-2018 E-450 vehicles equipped with a 6.8L engine built on or before 16-Jul-2018 using the Motorcraft® Orange coolant may exhibit an engine overheat concern. This condition may be due to deposits from the engine coolant becoming trapped in the radiator preventing coolant flow. To correct the condition, flush the cooling system, replace the radiator and fill with Motocraft® Yellow coolant."

If the radiator had to be replaced due to coolant coagulation and particulates, can you imagine what it has done to an ESCAPE radiator, heater core and transmission fluid heat ex-changers?

FORD dropped ORANGE in 2018 for truck and 2020 for cars.

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dilbertescape

· #25 · 27 d ago

MOONRNR said:
QUOTE FROM TSB -

"This article supersedes TSB 20-2090 to update the production fix date.

Issue: Some 2015-2019 Transit vehicles built on or before 31-Dec-2018 and some 2017-2018 E-450 vehicles equipped with a 6.8L engine built on or before 16-Jul-2018 using the Motorcraft® Orange coolant may exhibit an engine overheat concern. This condition may be due to deposits from the engine coolant becoming trapped in the radiator preventing coolant flow. To correct the condition, flush the cooling system, replace the radiator and fill with Motocraft® Yellow coolant."

If the radiator had to be replaced due to coolant coagulation and particulates, can you imagine what it has done to an ESCAPE radiator, heater core and transmission fluid heat ex-changers?

FORD dropped ORANGE in 2018 for truck and 2020 for cars.

The orange coolant was bad for lots of models. Most of the TSBs and documents talk about the Transit and bigger trucks. I'm pretty sure those got the attention because they are fleet vehicles. Hard to ignore the issue when a customer has perfect maintenance records and hundreds of blown up radiators.

Reactions: 1

jpohlman

· #26 · 27 d ago

First thing is the radiator tube diameters for the Transits and the engine called out in the TSB have smaller diameters than the Escape/Fusion/Focus/Fiesta/Mustang/F150, etc engines.

We've got 4k plus Focus & Escapes in our fleet and over 40k F150/F250 chassis based vehicles across the US and Canada. We haven't seen failures due to VC3 that we would expect to see from bad coolant, it's the usual fleet items when your vehicles run up 100k+ miles in 2-3 years. Bad thermostats, water pumps and hoses. Radiators when they occured are a usually a collision item and yes we were putting in VC3 by the 50 gallon drum until we started getting in 2019MY with VC13 at which point we phased out VC3 as we used up stock on hand.
PM when you have a fleet called for use of VC12 and regular coolant tests with VC1 used on a coolant flush.

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MOONRNR

· #27 · 27 d ago

QUOTE FROM TSB -

"This article supersedes TSB 20-2090 to update the production fix date.

Issue: Some 2015-2019 Transit vehicles built on or before 31-Dec-2018 and some 2017-2018 E-450 vehicles equipped with a 6.8L engine built on or before 16-Jul-2018 using the Motorcraft® Orange coolant may exhibit an engine overheat concern. This condition may be due to deposits from the engine coolant becoming trapped in the radiator preventing coolant flow. To correct the condition, flush the cooling system, replace the radiator and fill with Motocraft® Yellow coolant."

Reactions: 1

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · #28 · 26 d ago (Edited by Moderator)

MOONRNR said:
OK, here it is in a nutshell ...

The DEALER IS INCOMPETENT. You paid for a diagnosis and the tech couldn't write on the work order which cylinder(s) were defective? The SERVICE ADVISOR could not get up off his dead a$$ to go to the tech and ask? And they think you are going to trust them to replace the engine?

Your engine is the VALENCIA SPAIN 2.0L semi-open deck design which seemed to have few failures. There is a tear-down video showing dis-assembly of one (coolant intrusion concerns) and what was found was the coolant (ORANGE) having becoming caustic and eating away at the aluminum head and block surfaces and complete disintegration of the head gasket.

This is where you stand. To tear one down to find the cause is going to be expensive. And then if found the block is not saveable, you are looking at another engine after the labor to tear down the engine.

Comments?

Yeah, I already got that the dealer is useless, it seems most are. Getting on with it, everything about this seems like it will be expensive. Teardown/fix and/or new block? Expensive. Trade-in and begin more years of payments on a newer vehicle when I am just about paid off on this vehicle? Expensive. This is terrible all around it seems.

NickSP

· #29 · 26 d ago

Red_Chaos1 said:
Yeah, I already got that the dealer is useless, it seems most are. Getting on with it, everything about this seems like it will be expensive. Teardown/fix and/or new block? Expensive. Trade-in and begin more years of payments on a newer vehicle when I am just about paid off on this vehicle? Expensive. This is a ****-show all around it seems.

Have you tried to talk to the dealer about the costs involved for a long block? See if they are willing to work with you given it's a well known problem. They may agree to eat up half the cost or some of the cost.

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · #30 · 26 d ago

NickSP said:
Have you tried to talk to the dealer about the costs involved for a long block? See if they are willing to work with you given it's a well known problem. They may agree to eat up half the cost or some of the cost.

Honestly, after the way the call went when I was told about this, I haven't felt terribly interested in having anything to do with them. The advisor basically told me what the issue was, told me the wait list for a new block is really long, and then left it hanging which was why it felt like this was a "trick" of sorts. The elephant in the room really felt like the hope was that I'd just fold and start asking about a new vehicle. When I went to pick it up, he basically continued to hammer on the expense of a tear-down, and the suggestion that if they had to do that I'd need a new engine anyway really added to this feeling. Complete conjecture on my part, but usually the advisors are more helpful when discussing these things, this guy just didn't seem very helpful at all. He probably wasn't lying about the wait-list for a new engine being long, I don't have the funds to rent a car for an extended period which would mean driving my car hoping it doesn't seize or whatever until such a time the block can be replaced. Given how incredibly slow the coolent loss has been (it was still above the Min line back in March last year when I last had it serviced and was ~1/4" below that when I took it in this time), it's probably safe to drive for a while yet but who knows. Things like this tend to accelerate as the damage accumulates and it would seem it has been damaged for some time now.

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NickSP

· #31 · 26 d ago (Edited by Moderator)

Red_Chaos1 said:
Honestly, after the way the call went when I was told about this, I haven't felt terribly interested in having anything to do with them. The advisor basically told me what the issue was, told me the wait list for a new block is really long, and then left it hanging which was why it felt like this was a "trick" of sorts. The elephant in the room really felt like the hope was that I'd just fold and start asking about a new vehicle. When I went to pick it up, he basically continued to hammer on the expense of a tear-down, and the suggestion that if they had to do that I'd need a new engine anyway really added to this feeling. Complete conjecture on my part, but usually the advisors are more helpful when discussing these things, this guy just didn't seem very helpful at all. He probably wasn't lying about the wait-list for a new engine being long, I don't have the funds to rent a car for an extended period which would mean driving my car hoping it doesn't seize or whatever until such a time the block can be replaced. Given how incredibly slow the coolent loss has been (it was still above the Min line back in March last year when I last had it serviced and was ~1/4" below that when I took it in this time), it's probably safe to drive for a while yet but who knows. Things like this tend to accelerate as the damage accumulates and it would seem it has been damaged for some time now.

This is why I've come to hate car companies and stopped buying brand new cars that lose value.
Maybe you can find a rebuilt one and reduce your losses. Sorry that you're going through this.

jpohlman

· #32 · 24 d ago

MOONRNR said:
QUOTE FROM TSB -

"This article supersedes TSB 20-2090 to update the production fix date.

Issue: Some 2015-2019 Transit vehicles built on or before 31-Dec-2018 and some 2017-2018 E-450 vehicles equipped with a 6.8L engine built on or before 16-Jul-2018 using the Motorcraft® Orange coolant may exhibit an engine overheat concern. This condition may be due to deposits from the engine coolant becoming trapped in the radiator preventing coolant flow. To correct the condition, flush the cooling system, replace the radiator and fill with Motocraft® Yellow coolant."

The issue here is with certain vehicle radiators due to tube design and sometimes heater cores, not engines having head gaskets destroyed or aluminum engine/cooling system components being corroded, the problem was silica fallout under extended cold weather temperatures.
The Transit 150/250/350 all used the same radiator until the change in the middle of the 2019 model year, the 2018MY Transit Connect switched to the same radiator used in the 2017-2019 Escape, previously it had used the same radiator as the 2013-2016 Escape.

Reactions: 1

MOONRNR

· #33 · 24 d ago (Edited)

jpohlman said:
The issue here is with certain vehicle radiators due to tube design and sometimes heater cores, not engines having head gaskets destroyed or aluminum engine/cooling system components being corroded, the problem was silica fallout under extended cold weather temperatures.

The issue is across the board. FORD replaced ORANGE in 2018 in LT and 2020 in PASS CAR/SUV.

TSB 21-2050 EXCERPT -

Rectangle Font Circle Number Paper product

This is clearly COOLANT FAILURE. Why else would they replace a radiator? And the call out is expressly for YELLOW REPLACEMENT.

FORD made an engineering mistake on the 2nd GEN 2.0L block. They corrected that (finally).

But it does not explain all failures and that some may be caused by COOLANT ALKALINITY.

- 2017 2.0L VEP TEAR-DOWN -

-SEMI-OPEN DECK -

Now where did you hear that the radiator tubing size(s) may have something to do with this? I failed to see it mentioned in the referring TSB. Does a FORD REP frequent your shop and give you corporate inside information? The RAD was called to be replaced due to coolant coagulation and fallout (and I would imagine resulting core damage). They go back to engineering (as does the 1.6l short and 2.0L complete engines for analysis.

I would imagine very few FORD TECHS have the full knowledge/understanding as to what is happening as complete components are replaced and not analyzed at the dealer level (for a reason).

It is much more cost effective to just ship out a new short or complete.

Does FORD allow your shop to perform this type of repair or does it have to go to a dealer?

FORD is attempting to duck what GM was put through.

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KY.BORN

· #34 · 24 d ago

MOONRNR said:
The issue is across the board. FORD replaced ORANGE in 2018 in LT and 2020 in PASS CAR/SUV.

TSB 21-2050 EXCERPT -

View attachment 83303

This is clearly COOLANT FAILURE. Why else would they replace a radiator? And the call out is expressly for YELLOW REPLACEMENT.

FORD made an engineering mistake on the 2nd GEN 2.0L block. They corrected that (finally).

But it does not explain all failures and that some may be caused by COOLANT ALKALINITY.

- 2017 2.0L VEP TEAR-DOWN -

-SEMI-OPEN DECK -

Now where did you hear that the radiator tubing size(s) may have something to do with this? I failed to see it mentioned in the referring TSB. Does a FORD REP frequent your shop and give you corporate inside information? The RAD was called to be replaced due to coolant coagulation and fallout (and I would imagine resulting core damage). They go back to engineering (as does the 1.6l short and 2.0L complete engines for analysis.

I would imagine very few FORD TECHS have the full knowledge/understanding as to what is happening as complete components are replaced and not analyzed at the dealer level (for a reason).

It is much more cost effective to just ship out a new short or complete.

Does FORD allow your shop to perform this type of repair or does it have to go to a dealer?

FORD is attempting to duck what GM was put through.

When reading the TSB, where are the "Deposits" coming or created from, if not the Orange coolant..Ford is saying here the Orange coolant is eating away at some parts and causing the radiator to clog..So why not head gaskets too???

jpohlman

· #35 · 24 d ago (Edited)

There's no "eating" going on with this TSB.
VC3 uses silica as a corrosion inhibitor, the TSB refers to clogging due to silica drop out.
So if you think back to your high school chemistry class, the silica forms a precipitate under extended cold weather use. The precipitate causes the clogging of the radiator and heater cores.

Definition of precipitate - Chemistry Dictionary

www.chemicool.com

US4707286A - Coolant stabilizer - Google Patents

A stabilizer for glycol or glycol ether based aqueous coolant compositions comprising a combination of certain organic phosphonate compounds and certain organic silicon compounds, and coolant compositions containing such a stabilizer and methods of stabilizing coolant compositions by the...

patents.google.com

KY.BORN

· #36 · 24 d ago (Edited)

jpohlman said:
There's no "eating" going on with this TSB.
VC3 uses silica as a corrosion inhibitor, the TSB refers to clogging due to silica drop out.
So if you think back to your high school chemistry class, the silica forms a precipitate under extended cold weather use. The precipitate causes the clogging of the radiator and heater cores.

Definition of precipitate - Chemistry Dictionary

www.chemicool.com

US4707286A - Coolant stabilizer - Google Patents

A stabilizer for glycol or glycol ether based aqueous coolant compositions comprising a combination of certain organic phosphonate compounds and certain organic silicon compounds, and coolant compositions containing such a stabilizer and methods of stabilizing coolant compositions by the...

patents.google.com

OK, that means Escapes should be getting clogged radiators too with the Orange if left in there long enough, and how do you explain the VEP engine gaskets, blocks, heads, eaten away with the Orange if it had nothing to do with the coolant..I'd like to see the 17-19's taken apart and see the blocks and heads of those, if they show signs of corrosion or not...

MOONRNR

· #37 · 24 d ago (Edited)

Here is a tear-down of a 2017 2.0L VEP SEMI-CLOSED DECK -

The failed coolant will restrict coolant flow in the RAD, the HTR CORE, any valving (.6L specifically), the thermostat fouls and oil coolers become plugged leading to common AT failure(s) from overheated ATF.

How obvious does one need?

And as for HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY, I remember no class titled FORD ENGINEERING - COOLANT TECH 101. The industry changes and progresses (hopefully for buyers) every model year.

Of course I posted the wrong video -

Let me try this again ...

2017 2.0L 2nd GEN CLV - TEARDOWN

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jpohlman

· #38 · 24 d ago

They haven't had it due to the size of the radiator/heater core tubes hence the reason that it says SOME Transit and some F150s with a specific engine, the issue isn't age its extended cold weather use.
There have only been YouTube videos with guys blaming the coolant and equating it with GM's DexCool issue, (VC3 is not DexCool, a third party product can meet both specs but it doesn't mean they are the same). I've NEVER had an engine in 40 years where the block or head was clean when the head gasket came off that I didn't have to scrape/sand the surface.
Nowhere if you look across all of the various model forums has anyone show an actual metallurgical analysis showing the coolant has eaten the block. If you search the various class action sites none link the failure root cause to the coolant, it's all linked to engine block design or poor head gasket quality control.

So instead let's look at the engines that have used VC3.
2.5L L4: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head
2.0L L4 Gen 1 EB: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head
2.3L L4 EB: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head
2.0L L4 ATK: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head (all the way up to 2019 on the Fusion/CMax hybrid, the 2020 Fusion went to VC13 just like all the rest)
2.0L L4: Focus/EcoSport no issues aluminum block and head (US EcoSport never went to VC13 even in 2020)
1.0L L3: EB EcoSport aluminum block and head (US EcoSport never went to VC13 even in 2020)
3.7L V6: 2015-2017 No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head
5.0L V8: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head (Used in the GT350)
5.2L V8: No recurring issues across multiple models: aluminum block and head (Used in the GT350)

Now let's look at the problem children:
1.6L L4 (Escape/Fusion): Problems due to cooling system design (the Fusion major recall had 92 components adding multiple sensors, a new degas tank and plumbing)
1.5L L4 EB: "Clean sheet design" cracked blocks, resolution is new block design
2.0L L4 EB Twin Scroll: "Clean sheet redesign" cracked blocks, resolution is new block design, questions over if the issue was a plant based QA issue since Cleveland built had more issues than Valencia built units
2.7L V6 EB: "Clean sheet design" cracked blocks, resolution is new short block design

With the exception of the 1.6L (which was a Zetec) the failures coincide with Ford's move away from engines co-designed with Mazda (the DuraTech line, yes even the 2.0L Gen 1 EB is a variant of the 2.0L DuraTech in the Focus) to the "clean sheet redesign" and the resolution to the issue across the board was to get rid of the cooling passage slot on the deck and replace it with a bored passage instead.

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MOONRNR

· #39 · 24 d ago

It's children now?

The TECH VIDEOS I have posted are from very qualified FORD TECH(s).

NickSP

· #40 · 24 d ago

Let's not forget that there are at least 3 posters with FE 2.0 coolant leak and they're all pre 2017.

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