2015 2.0 L Coolant Loss - Dealer Trying to Trick Me?

3273 Views 72 Replies 12 Participants Last post by MOONRNR, 5 d ago

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · 29 d ago (Edited)

So I took my Escape in for service for a transmission leak, engine splash guard fasteners needing replaced, noticed coolant had begun disappearing when it never used to, some other minor things. I was worried I might have one of the EcoBoost engines with the stupid design, but most everything says that's in the 2016 and newer models. Advisor called me today and says they looked at the coolant issue first and found coolant in two of my cylinders coming from the head (so apparently I do have the stupid design in my vehicle). He then also claimed I was outside the recall window. Thing is, I bought this from a Ford dealership, and I never received a recall notice for it. Seems to me if it had the bad block, I should've received that or it should've been taken care of. The Advisor also claimed it was something they can't know by VIN, etc. which also sounds like a load of crap. Of course the replacement block is on major back-order, blah blah blah, I can see this is already headed towards suggesting getting a new vehicle, which I cannot afford.

Basically, I need to know if I am being BSed. Any useful advice on how to move forward with this would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Okay, so it appears there is no recall on this issue (even though it seems there should be) so I have no idea why the advisor even mentioned that. It also appears the info I had that it normally affects 2016 and newer is wrong too, as it can happen on older 1.5L and 2.0L engines as well. Cool.

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jpohlman

· #41 · 23 d ago (Edited)

1) Let's look across ALL the models, not just the Escape. IF the issue was wide spread with the original 2.0L EB it would be all over the place (especially on the Focus and Fusion forums where tunes are really common), not just 3 posts from owners with vehicles which are now a minimum of 8 years old. It's no different than having a bad transmission. There's a significant difference from having a well documented issue like say the PS6 clutch issues and the issues some have with the 6F35 or for that matter with the few reported issues some of the 4G Hybrid owners have had with the HF35.

2) Problem children is an expression, call them problem engines if you like, either way the problem follows the engine design not the coolant.

3) Nowhere in any of the videos does the tech have vehicle maintenance/use history or how bad the problem had to get before the owner brought it in for repair. You overheat an engine, blow the head gasket and warp the head it's not going to be pretty, even more so if the owner tried dropping in something like Bars Leak or one of the other coolant sealers.

3) If VC3 coolant was eating head gaskets or corroding blocks it would have shown up on the original 2.0L L4 EB a long time ago, the head gasket on the 2.0L EB (both flavors) has been the same since 2015 (FB5Z-6051-A), the original was used until early 2015 (CJ5Z-6051-B) and completely phased out in 2018 (it was used on both the 2.0L EB and DuraTech 20 2.0L non-EB).

Factory Direct OEM Head Gasket Part# FB5Z-6051-A Fits 2015-2020 Ford: Up To 35% Off On Every Order And Guaranteed Fit When You Enter Your VIN | Search Ford Parts

2015-2020 Ford Genuine Part # FB5Z-6051-A - Head Gasket

www.searchfordparts.com

Factory Direct OEM Head Gasket Part# CJ5Z-6051-B Fits 2012-2018 Ford: Up To 35% Off On Every Order And Guaranteed Fit When You Enter Your VIN | Search Ford Parts

2012-2018 Ford Genuine Part # CJ5Z-6051-B - Head Gasket

www.searchfordparts.com

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Reactions: 1

KY.BORN

· #42 · 23 d ago

MOONRNR said:
Here is a tear-down of a 2017 2.0L VEP SEMI-CLOSED DECK -

The failed coolant will restrict coolant flow in the RAD, the HTR CORE, any valving (.6L specifically), the thermostat fouls and oil coolers become plugged leading to common AT failure(s) from overheated ATF.

How obvious does one need?

And as for HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY, I remember no class titled FORD ENGINEERING - COOLANT TECH 101. The industry changes and progresses (hopefully for buyers) every model year.

Of course I posted the wrong video -

Let me try this again ...

2017 2.0L 2nd GEN CLV - TEARDOWN

Yes, look at the 7:00 minute mark on the video and zoom in, there is corrosion around the bores and in between the cooling slots...This is a 2.0 2017...Nice find..I rest my case...

MOONRNR

· #43 · 23 d ago (Edited by Moderator)

It is now three to five model years later. There will be less complaints here as most will be repaired at an outside shop, salvaged or passed off. It seems FORD missed the bullet.

It has to be the radiator tube gauge, couldn't be anything else.

There is no 100,000 mile coolant as there is no 100,000 mile ATF. That is sales hype to sell TURBO ENGINES to the general public. A TURBO requires much more maintenance than a NA engine.

[Edited : MOD comment- keep personal attacks out of posts.]

jpohlman

· #44 · 23 d ago

First rules of doing a QA root cause analysis:
1) Start with a new unit for a baseline
2) Get an equivalent "good" unit with roughly the same age/wear
3) Compare it to defective unit
4) Does the failure appear imminent in the equivalent age/wear unit?
5) If so, design or production flaw unless unit is at/near planned failure
6) If not present, get an equivalent "good" unit with significantly higher age/wear
7) Compare it to the defective unit
8) Does the failure appear imminent in the older unit? If so the defective unit is an early failure, if not unit failure is either due to method of use, environment, maintenance or abnormal component failure.

Everything in that video is from an engine which has already failed.
Where's the video showing a tear down of an engine which has NOT failed that is also showing corrosion from the coolant?
When a head gasket is blown all kinds of things get cooked by the high temp combustion gasses and one also has products of combustion that react with the coolant.
You've ignored his statement at around 8:50 where he states that the cause of the failure is the slit cut in the deck.

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MOONRNR

· #45 · 23 d ago

Let's just agree to disagree. Your rationing is getting a little loose.

No disrespect intended.

KY.BORN

· #46 · 23 d ago

MOONRNR said:
Here is a tear-down of a 2017 2.0L VEP SEMI-CLOSED DECK -

The failed coolant will restrict coolant flow in the RAD, the HTR CORE, any valving (.6L specifically), the thermostat fouls and oil coolers become plugged leading to common AT failure(s) from overheated ATF.

How obvious does one need?

And as for HIGH SCHOOL CHEMISTRY, I remember no class titled FORD ENGINEERING - COOLANT TECH 101. The industry changes and progresses (hopefully for buyers) every model year.

Of course I posted the wrong video -

Let me try this again ...

2017 2.0L 2nd GEN CLV - TEARDOWN

Just dawned on me that the Fordmakeyouloco video is suppose to be 2017 Escape 2.0 Cleveland made engine, but the block is the same semi-open design as the other video that is suppose to be a VEP engine..Weren't all the Cleveland 2.0 17-19's totally open ??

jpohlman

· #47 · 23 d ago

Cleveland never made the original 2.0L L4 EB, and the 2.0L L4 used in the Focus was made at Dearborn, that was one of the reasons that people originally linked the failures to startup production problems (which they may have been) and we in North America are a bit more vocal than other parts of the world when it comes to something going wrong in our cars.
If the video is a 2017 this brings back the question some have raised since some of the early 2017 Valencia 2.0L L4 EB
blocks look like the original 2.0L L4 EB. Blocks for the 2.0L L4, original 2.0L L4 EB and the 2017 2.0L L4 EB have all been seen with the same casting number (guy over on the Fusion forum used an original 2.0L L4 EB block to fix his engine when his 2017 2.0L L4 EB block cracked) and technically all 3 should be able use the same head gasket based on the Ford part number overlap.
It would take someone with access to the Ford engineering power train team change history to answer this definitively, that said it's possible the sequence went something along the line of: 1) startup using the original block and head gasket (CJ5Z part number); 2) first problems reported then a switch to the other head gasket (FB5Z which strangely is an Explorer series number, did Ford make a slight change in 2015 with components for engines destined for large vehicles?); 3) head gasket doesn't fix the problem, so a design change is made to the block casting; 4) block casting change doesn't fix the problem, so they accept its a problem with using a slot instead of a drilled passage.

This scenario is of course ALL theoretical, but if there was one thing that was learned from the GM ignition switch debacle and the VW diesel issue, people/companies will make changes to cover themselves. With the GM issue, the guy that designed their ignition switches knew there was a problem, then sent out an updated design to their vendors more than once without changing or incrementing the part number. With VW, they couldn't meet their DEF fluid add interval, so they changed the logic to partially disable the emissions logic and covered it by setting it to fully enable only when a scanner was plugged into the OBD2 port.

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KY.BORN

· #48 · 23 d ago

jpohlman said:
Cleveland never made the original 2.0L L4 EB, and the 2.0L L4 used in the Focus was made at Dearborn, that was one of the reasons that people originally linked the failures to startup production problems (which they may have been) and we in North America are a bit more vocal than other parts of the world when it comes to something going wrong in our cars.
If the video is a 2017 this brings back the question some have raised since some of the early 2017 Valencia 2.0L L4 EB
blocks look like the original 2.0L L4 EB. Blocks for the 2.0L L4, original 2.0L L4 EB and the 2017 2.0L L4 EB have all been seen with the same casting number (guy over on the Fusion forum used an original 2.0L L4 EB block to fix his engine when his 2017 2.0L L4 EB block cracked) and technically all 3 should be able use the same head gasket based on the Ford part number overlap.
It would take someone with access to the Ford engineering power train team change history to answer this definitively, that said it's possible the sequence went something along the line of: 1) startup using the original block and head gasket (CJ5Z part number); 2) first problems reported then a switch to the other head gasket (FB5Z which strangely is an Explorer series number, did Ford make a slight change in 2015 with components for engines destined for large vehicles?); 3) head gasket doesn't fix the problem, so a design change is made to the block casting; 4) block casting change doesn't fix the problem, so they accept its a problem with using a slot instead of a drilled passage.

This scenario is of course ALL theoretical, but if there was one thing that was learned from the GM ignition switch debacle and the VW diesel issue, people/companies will make changes to cover themselves. With the GM issue, the guy that designed their ignition switches knew there was a problem, then sent out an updated design to their vendors more than once without changing or incrementing the part number. With VW, they couldn't meet their DEF fluid add interval, so they changed the logic to partially disable the emissions logic and covered it by setting it to fully enable only when a scanner was plugged into the OBD2 port.

So your saying we really dont know which block design could be in the early 2017's 2.0, from Cleveland ??

jpohlman

· #49 · 22 d ago

Exactly, it's possible based on the casting number and some of the pics.
Think about it, if you look at this as being an incremental revision the first change is a new head with the twin scroll turbo using what has been a good block casting right when they're trying to sort out the block issue with the Craiova built 1.5L L4 EB.
Cleveland started making the twin scroll 2.0L\2.3L L4 EB in 2015 for the Edge, MKC and Mustang, but the block/head gasket issue doesn't really become big until the 2017 units. The 2015/2016 Edge is known for flex plate issues not coolant intrusion so what changed?
The 2015 date coincides with the new head gasket part number and the 2.3L is definitely a different casting from the 2.0L, there's a really interesting read on the engine blocks on the Focus RS forum.

www.focusrs.org

Engine block comparison 2.0 2.3

I’ve been looking at pics of different engine blocks trying to get an idea of what would be the best set up for a strong reliable engine build. There are a number of options out there; Focus ST 2.0, 2016-2019 Fusion 2.0 Ecoboost or the Focus RS 2.3. All with the 2.3 internals of course. I’m...

www.focusrs.org

www.focusrs.org

MOONRNR

· #50 · 22 d ago (Edited)

KY.BORN said:
Just dawned on me that the Fordmakeyouloco video is suppose to be 2017 Escape 2.0 Cleveland made engine, but the block is the same semi-open design as the other video that is suppose to be a VEP engine..Weren't all the Cleveland 2.0 17-19's totally open ??

The 1st video I posted is the 2.0L VEP tear-down. The VEP is a semi-open block design.

The 2nd video shows the 2.0L CLV OPEN DECK w/COOLING CHANNELS tear down.

The discussion is COOLANT ALKALINITY, not engine cooling design. The cooling design progressions have been fully discussed.

You ID which engine you have in the vehicle by the ENGINE ID LABEL on the rocker cover.

The 2.0L 2nd GEN began failing in the intro year - 2015. One needs to read the TSB's fully. The EDGE, MKC and others will not be discussed here as this is 3rd GEN ESCAPE DEDICATED.

Rectangle Font Screenshot Number Parallel

Font Number Screenshot Parallel Document

The 1.5l/1.6L is entirely a different engine.

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jpohlman

· #51 · 22 d ago

Ok, VC3 is an HOAT coolant (hybrid organic acid technology) and in the first few 1000 miles basically applies a silica coating to the cooling system components.
Silica drop out can occur under extended cold operating temperatures or as the coolant ages out.
You check the condition with what are basically litmus strips and the VC12 coolant revitalizer is an acid solution which lowers the pH to keep the silica suspended in the coolant.

KY.BORN

· #52 · 22 d ago

MOONRNR said:
The 1st video I posted is the 2.0L VEP tear-down. The VEP is a semi-open block design.

The 2nd video shows the 2.0L CLV OPEN DECK w/COOLING CHANNELS tear down.

The discussion is COOLANT ALKALINITY, not engine cooling design. The cooling design progressions have been fully discussed.

You ID which engine you have in the vehicle by the ENGINE ID LABEL on the rocker cover.

The 2.0L 2nd GEN began failing in the intro year - 2015. One needs to read the TSB's fully. The EDGE, MKC and others will not be discussed here as this is 3rd GEN ESCAPE DEDICATED.

View attachment 83311

View attachment 83312

The 1.5l/1.6L is entirely a different engine.

Take another good look at both videos at the blocks close up..They are both Semi closed or open, identical..The Loco video is a '17' Escape 2.0 from Cleveland, that's my engine too..But why is Not a totally open block?????...

MOONRNR

· #53 · 21 d ago

KY.BORN said:
Take another good look at both videos at the blocks close up..They are both Semi closed or open, identical..The Loco video is a '17' Escape 2.0 from Cleveland, that's my engine too..But why is Not a totally open block?????...

Does your cyl block deck look like this? If so, then it is the 2015-2019 CLV OPEN DECK BLOCK w COOLING SLATS. This is the 2.0L block giving problems.

Automotive tire Font Automotive wheel system Automotive exterior Gas

- MODULATOR - THIS DIAGRAM IS FROM A VIDEO AND NOT WSM -

To further clarify, look to the PASS SIDE ROCKER COVER for an ID TAG.

Post what yours displays.

Product Font Material property Auto part Rectangle

The coolant issue isn't going to be answered/solved here and I want to clear this subject up so I can diddi-mau out of here.

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2

KY.BORN

· #54 · 21 d ago

MOONRNR said:
Does your cyl block deck look like this? If so, then it is the 2015-2019 CLV OPEN DECK BLOCK w COOLING SLATS. This is the 2.0L block giving problems.

View attachment 83315

- MODULATOR - THIS DIAGRAM IS FROM A VIDEO AND NOT WSM -

To further clarify, look to the PASS SIDE ROCKER COVER for an ID TAG.

Post what yours displays.

View attachment 83316

The coolant issue isn't going to be answered/solved here and I want to clear this subject up so I can diddi-mau out of here.

I dont know what my block looks like, and hope I don't ever have to see it 😄..... I know my engine tag, June 2017,, Cleveland...The point is, why is the '17' Escape on Loco's video, Semi closed, if it is a Cleveland??...Is it because what JPOH says, they might of mixed up several blocks designs even at Cleveland??

marj

· #55 · 21 d ago

i currently have in my bay a 2.0 ltr Eco boost from a 2017 escape antifreeze in cylinder #4 tsb for a long block

Reactions: 1

MOONRNR

· #56 · 21 d ago (Edited)

Let's try it this way. There were three 2.0L EB CYL BLOCKS used (four if you count the 2020 2.0L 2nd GEN re-cast);

1st GEN CLOSED DECK (continued used of MAZDA L-ENGINE (2010-2016)

Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Automotive engine gasket

2nd GEN OPEN DECK ENGINE [2015-2019)

Automotive tire Font Automotive wheel system Automotive exterior Gas

VEP (EURO) SEMI-OPEN DECK - CAST IN VALENCIA SPAIN FOUNDRY (used in EURO and WORLD-WIDE EXPORT mostly)

Automotive tire Black Automotive design Alloy wheel Wood

Automotive lighting Automotive tire Light Alloy wheel Rim

Tire Automotive tire Hood Alloy wheel Rim

DIFF IN 2nd GEN COOLING PASSAGES (2015-2019 (2020- )

Tire Automotive tire Wheel Product Automotive lighting

Hope those help. It is a little confusing.

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6

KY.BORN

· #57 · 21 d ago

marj said:
i currently have in my bay a 2.0 ltr Eco boost from a 2017 escape antifreeze in cylinder #4 tsb for a long block

Can you tell us the type block, open , closed , semi, and where the engine was made, and approx. how many 2.0 have you seen with this problem...Thanks..

MOONRNR

· #58 · 20 d ago

Re: COOLING RECALLS

MOONRNR said:
I think you are correct ...

Actually, there were two recalls, one the 2013 ESCAPE 1.6L and another for the 2014 ESCAPE 1.6L.

Ford Recalls Escape, Fiesta ST, Fusion and Transit Connect After 29 Fires

Ford is recalling 230,000 1.6-liter GTDI vehicles because they could catch on fire under the hoods, something that has occurred at least 29 times. Recalled are 2014 Ford Escape, 2014-2015 Ford Fiesta ST, 2013-2014 Ford Fusion and 2013-2015 Ford Transit Connect vehicles that can overheat due to a...

www.carcomplaints.com

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2013/RCRIT-13V584-6845.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RCMN-17V209-1124.pdf

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · #59 · 18 d ago

So judging by the pics above, even though I have a VEP and it's likely a semi-open, it could still have those dumb cooling slots?

I still need to contact another mechanic to get a second opinion, but I'd like to hear other's opinions on this. If this were your vehicle, and it turned out the coolant intrusion wasn't just from a worn head gasket or something else simple to fix (assuming it could be that simple), what would you do?

Red_Chaos1

Discussion Starter · #60 · 14 d ago

Okay, so I took the car to another mechanic a friend of mine recommended, they have confirmed coolant intrusion on cylinders 2 and 3. They referenced TSB 19-2172 which has been superceded by 19-2208, the result is still replacing the long block. Total estimated quote from the mechanic for a remanufactured engine/parts/labor is just shy of $7500, which is about what the car is worth on a trade-in, according to KBB. I inquired about the necessity of doing the whole engine, they confirmed with this design it is necessary, and I followed up asking about the reliability of the reman engine, whether I might see the same issue down the road with it, the reply (verbatim) was "The company we use uses enforce head gasket : I know they have few updated designs on this engine"

It's hard for me to make a call on this, I have no idea if getting a remanufactured engine is normally okay or if it';s even worth going ahead vs. looking into trading it in for another vehicle. I have finished paying this one off, so it is 100% mine now. Obviously getting a different vehicle would have me back on payments for a few years. In essence, I need to hear from folks who've been through this to help me understand and figure out if this is worth my time or is more trouble than it's worth.

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