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2015 2.0 L Coolant Loss - Dealer Trying to Trick Me?

3271 Views 72 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  MOONRNR
So I took my Escape in for service for a transmission leak, engine splash guard fasteners needing replaced, noticed coolant had begun disappearing when it never used to, some other minor things. I was worried I might have one of the EcoBoost engines with the stupid design, but most everything says that's in the 2016 and newer models. Advisor called me today and says they looked at the coolant issue first and found coolant in two of my cylinders coming from the head (so apparently I do have the stupid design in my vehicle). He then also claimed I was outside the recall window. Thing is, I bought this from a Ford dealership, and I never received a recall notice for it. Seems to me if it had the bad block, I should've received that or it should've been taken care of. The Advisor also claimed it was something they can't know by VIN, etc. which also sounds like a load of crap. Of course the replacement block is on major back-order, blah blah blah, I can see this is already headed towards suggesting getting a new vehicle, which I cannot afford.

Basically, I need to know if I am being BSed. Any useful advice on how to move forward with this would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: Okay, so it appears there is no recall on this issue (even though it seems there should be) so I have no idea why the advisor even mentioned that. It also appears the info I had that it normally affects 2016 and newer is wrong too, as it can happen on older 1.5L and 2.0L engines as well. Cool.
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Okay, so I took the car to another mechanic a friend of mine recommended, they have confirmed coolant intrusion on cylinders 2 and 3. They referenced TSB 19-2172 which has been superceded by 19-2208, the result is still replacing the long block. Total estimated quote from the mechanic for a remanufactured engine/parts/labor is just shy of $7500, which is about what the car is worth on a trade-in, according to KBB. I inquired about the necessity of doing the whole engine, they confirmed with this design it is necessary, and I followed up asking about the reliability of the reman engine, whether I might see the same issue down the road with it, the reply (verbatim) was "The company we use uses enforce head gasket : I know they have few updated designs on this engine"

It's hard for me to make a call on this, I have no idea if getting a remanufactured engine is normally okay or if it';s even worth going ahead vs. looking into trading it in for another vehicle. I have finished paying this one off, so it is 100% mine now. Obviously getting a different vehicle would have me back on payments for a few years. In essence, I need to hear from folks who've been through this to help me understand and figure out if this is worth my time or is more trouble than it's worth.
I would go to a Ford dealer directly and negotiate with them. Ask them for some goodwill discount since this is a known issue. At least that way, you'll have some warranty on the new engine.
I would go to a Ford dealer directly and negotiate with them. Ask them for some goodwill discount since this is a known issue. At least that way, you'll have some warranty on the new engine.
I failed to note, the reman engine will come with a 2yr/24K mile warranty.
Okay, so I took the car to another mechanic a friend of mine recommended, they have confirmed coolant intrusion on cylinders 2 and 3. They referenced TSB 19-2172 which has been superceded by 19-2208, the result is still replacing the long block.
Is this for the 2015 Titanium 2.0 FWD in your signature? Neither of those recalls apply to Escapes earlier than 2017. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10162071-0001.pdf

This bulletin supersedes 19-2172. Reason for update: Replace Awareness/Interim Message
Model:
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2017-2019 Escape
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jpohlman, post: 1191953

"First rules of doing a QA root cause analysis:

1) Start with a new unit for a baseline
2) Get an equivalent "good" unit with roughly the same age/wear
3) Compare it to defective unit
4) Does the failure appear imminent in the equivalent age/wear unit?
5) If so, design or production flaw unless unit is at/near planned failure
6) If not present, get an equivalent "good" unit with significantly higher age/wear
7) Compare it to the defective unit
8) Does the failure appear imminent in the older unit? If so the defective unit is an early failure, if not unit failure is either due to method of use, environment, maintenance or abnormal component failure.

Everything in that video is from an engine which has already failed.

Where's the video showing a tear down of an engine which has NOT failed that is also showing corrosion from the coolant?"

*

Why would someone tear down an engine ($$$) that has not failed, other than possibly FORD ENGINEERING?

So FORD, even though knowing that both the block coolant design(s) and the coolant (ORANGE) are defective is going to tear down a good engine (supposedly) to compare it with a failed engine?

That gets kind of expensive. They realize the failure{s) and that is why the engine assembly is replaced with a later design with YELLOW COOLANT. It seems FORD has missed the bullet on the many class action suits regarding this issue and still keep pumping out this engine design to an unsuspecting consumer.

GOOGLE FORD ENGINE COOLANT ISSUES and you will get the info on the lawsuits.
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" ...they have confirmed coolant intrusion on cylinders 2 and 3. They referenced TSB 19-2172 which has been superceded by 19-2208, the result is still replacing the long block. Total estimated quote from the mechanic for a remanufactured engine/parts/labor is just shy of $7500, which is about what the car is worth on a trade-in, according to KBB.

I inquired about the necessity of doing the whole engine, they confirmed with this design it is necessary, and I followed up asking about the reliability of the reman engine, whether I might see the same issue down the road with it, the reply (verbatim) was "The company we use uses enforce head gasket : I know they have few updated designs on this engine"

First, ask the for the vendor of the REMAN. Call and ask what period cyl block they use. Read and understand the warranty and what it covers.

If the REMAN is using an old slotted block (regardless of any new and/or improved head gasket design), run as fast and as far as you can. It has to be the 2nd GEN redesign (2020/ , whether CLV or VEP).

FORD offers REMAN. Possibly check with the dealer parts department to see if they have info on what style block is used. I doubt FORD would reman with an older style block. If you don't trust the dealer, have a trusted outside shop do the work. Same problem(s) with salvage and/or take-out. You already have a used engine.

Info on the engine series is very limited. I doubt most FORD TECHS understand it all (they get paid to R&R, not to discuss engineering). Remember, the 2.0L is not torn down, it is simply replaced. The take-out goes back to FORD (for diagnosis, use of internal parts for REMAN or scrap).
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Okay, so I took the car to another mechanic a friend of mine recommended, they have confirmed coolant intrusion on cylinders 2 and 3. They referenced TSB 19-2172 which has been superceded by 19-2208, the result is still replacing the long block. Total estimated quote from the mechanic for a remanufactured engine/parts/labor is just shy of $7500, which is about what the car is worth on a trade-in, according to KBB. I inquired about the necessity of doing the whole engine, they confirmed with this design it is necessary, and I followed up asking about the reliability of the reman engine, whether I might see the same issue down the road with it, the reply (verbatim) was "The company we use uses enforce head gasket : I know they have few updated designs on this engine"

It's hard for me to make a call on this, I have no idea if getting a remanufactured engine is normally okay or if it';s even worth going ahead vs. looking into trading it in for another vehicle. I have finished paying this one off, so it is 100% mine now. Obviously getting a different vehicle would have me back on payments for a few years. In essence, I need to hear from folks who've been through this to help me understand and figure out if this is worth my time or is more trouble than it's worth.
“The company we use??” They should only be installing a Ford remanufactured engine. Not something built by Jasper or anyone else. Get complete clarity on what they are actually selling you.
Is this for the 2015 Titanium 2.0 FWD in your signature? Neither of those recalls apply to Escapes earlier than 2017. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10162071-0001.pdf
Yes, it is. I mentioned the fact that the TSBs don't mention earlier models, but my vehicle exhibits or has exhibited every single troubleshooting point listed. It blew white smoke on start up twice over the past few years, a few months ago I had the blinking MIL and subsequent rough running, which when scanned was code P0303. I swapped the coil to cylinder 4 and the issue followed so I replaced it and no issues there since. I noted the coolant had gotten below the minimum line a while before I did the brakes and oil change with the help of a friend, the decrease in coolant was extremely slow. I kind of feel like this is an "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck" issue, but I'm not a mechanic. I just have both a dealer and a mechanic shop recommnded by a friend who is a damn good mechanic himself both saying everything fits the TSB and the fix is a new engine. Should I be doubting this still despite the evidence? I'm asking earnestly, because I really don't know how to deal with this kind of stuff. I work in IT. If this was a computer, I'd be all over it no sweat. But it's a car and while I'm mechanically inclined, issues of this caliber are beyond me.

First, ask the for the vendor of the REMAN. Call and ask what period cyl block they use. Read and understand the warranty and what it covers.

If the REMAN is using an old slotted block (regardless of any new and/or improved head gasket design), run as fast and as far as you can. It has to be the 2nd GEN redesign (2020/ , whether CLV or VEP).

FORD offers REMAN. Possibly check with the dealer parts department to see if they have info on what style block is used. I doubt FORD would reman with an older style block. If you don't trust the dealer, have a trusted outside shop do the work. Same problem(s) with salvage and/or take-out. You already have a used engine.

Info on the engine series is very limited. I doubt most FORD TECHS understand it all (they get paid to R&R, not to discuss engineering). Remember, the 2.0L is not torn down, it is simply replaced. The take-out goes back to FORD (for diagnosis, use of internal parts for REMAN or scrap).
I will press the mechanic for this info. I was already thinking about going back to the dealer and possibly other Ford dealers in the area to inquire about costs and availability/wait times.
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I kind of feel like this is an "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck" issue, but I'm not a mechanic. I just have both a dealer and a mechanic shop recommnded by a friend who is a damn good mechanic himself both saying everything fits the TSB and the fix is a new engine. Should I be doubting this still despite the evidence?
I'm not saying that you couldn't have coolant intrusion/ head gasket failure, just your engine is a totally different earlier design and those TSB's don't apply. Make sure anyone quoting repairs realises it's the first series 2.0l EcoBoost engine, it could even be worthwhile shopping for a low mileage used engine. (Given there's no inherent design issues with that version of the 2.0l EcoBoost engine. You wouldn't want to do that if it was a 2017-2019 model. ;) )
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"I will press the mechanic for this info. I was already thinking about going back to the dealer and possibly other Ford dealers in the area to inquire about costs and availability/wait times."

This is a 2015 2.0L, correct?

CRS is creeping up again as there is a 1.6L discussion going on within this thread also.

According to ONLINE CATALOGING, the 2.0L 1st GEN (no cooling passages) ENGINE is DISCONTINUED and the REMAN is on eternal back order. Who performed the engine diagnosis, a dealer or shop? Did they begin to tear into the engine or you are on hold?

On your rocker (valve) cover, passenger side, there will be an ENGINE ASSEMBLY ID TAG -


Can you post that info and the 8th character of your VIN?
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"I will press the mechanic for this info. I was already thinking about going back to the dealer and possibly other Ford dealers in the area to inquire about costs and availability/wait times."

This is a 2015 2.0L, correct?
Correct.

CRS is creeping up again as there is a 1.6L discussion going on within this thread also.

According to ONLINE CATALOGING, the 2.0L 1st GEN (no cooling passages) ENGINE is DISCONTINUED and the REMAN is on eternal back order. Who performed the engine diagnosis, a dealer or shop? Did they begin to tear into the engine or you are on hold?
The first diagnosis was at/by a Ford dealership. The entirety of the notes of what the tech found is noted in an earlier post by me in this thread, tl;dr: they pressure tested, pressure dropped, scoped the cylinders, found coolant, solution is a new longblock which is on backorder. The second diagnosis was done by a shop recommended to me by a friend who is a pretty good mechanic themselves, confirmed the coolant intrusion and informing me which cylinders, then pointing to the TSB and offfering a reman engine with a 2yr/24K mile warranty for just shy of $7500 all in. The shop mechanic sent me a text message of video of the Snap-on scope screen trying to show me, but it was so small and low res I couldn't make any of it out. That I am aware, no one has actually opened the engine up. With the verification, I had put things on hold to try to get a better understanding of stuff and be able to make as informed a decision on what course to take that I can.

On your rocker (valve) cover, passenger side, there will be an ENGINE ASSEMBLY ID TAG -
Can you post that info and the 8th character of your VIN?
Sure, here's the engine tag:


8th character of the VIN is 9
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Brother, I am sorry for jerking you around. For some reason (ADVANCED CRS most likely) I have your thread confused with another. I finally read through the entire thread and now fully understand your situation.

THANK YOU for posting the requested info the 2ND TIME.

Here it is in a nutshell. You (and I) have the 1st GEN 2.0L EB (2010-2017). It is (was) cast/assembled in VALENCIA (SPAIN). It was based on the MAZDA L ENGINE SERIES used by FORD previously *. It is a SEMI-OPEN BLOCK CASTING (which offers a more stable engine cylinder barrels over the 2nd GEN DESIGN).

The FORD /MAZDA partnership was coming to an end in 2015 and FORD decided to make their own block design to not have to pay MAZDA royalties and and hopefully be able to contain the additional HP and cooling needs for their 2nd GEN 2.0L. The casting was a failure as being fully open deck the barrels were able to move and lose the head gasket seal with the original design (2015) SAW-CUT COOLING PASSAGES between the cylinder barrels.

FORD realized their engineering mistake(s) and re-engineered the block again for the 2020 model run. This block went to the DRILLED COOLANT PASSAGES to hopefully contain cyl barrel movement(s).

Watch this video on a VEP tear-down and why it was found to experience COOLING INTRUSION -


Ask anything that I have not made clear.

* CORRECTION -

There were two 1st GEN BLOCK STYLES, the CLOSED DECK (continuation of the MAZDA L DESIGN,


and the VEP SEMI-CLOSED DECK, which was made for EURO and exported worldwide for FORD ASSEMBLY (incl partial US).


There is little info explaining all of this and the info is found piece by piece it seems.
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2
Brother, I am sorry for jerking you around. For some reason (ADVANCED CRS most likely) I have your thread confused with another. I finally read through the entire thread and now fully understand your situation.

THANK YOU for posting the requested info the 2ND TIME.
No worries man.

Here it is in a nutshell. You (and I) have the 1st GEN 2.0L EB (2010-2017). It is (was) cast/assembled in VALENCIA (SPAIN). It was based on the MAZDA L ENGINE SERIES used by FORD previously *. It is a SEMI-OPEN BLOCK CASTING (which offers a more stable engine cylinder barrels over the 2nd GEN DESIGN).

The FORD /MAZDA partnership was coming to an end in 2015 and FORD decided to make their own block design to not have to pay MAZDA royalties and and hopefully be able to contain the additional HP and cooling needs for their 2nd GEN 2.0L. The casting was a failure as being fully open deck the barrels were able to move and lose the head gasket seal with the original design (2015) SAW-CUT COOLING PASSAGES between the cylinder barrels.

FORD realized their engineering mistake(s) and re-engineered the block again for the 2020 model run. This block went to the DRILLED COOLANT PASSAGES to hopefully contain cyl barrel movement(s).

Watch this video on a VEP tear-down and why it was found to experience COOLING INTRUSION -


Ask anything that I have not made clear.

* CORRECTION -

There were two 1st GEN BLOCK STYLES, the CLOSED DECK (continuation of the MAZDA L DESIGN,


and the VEP SEMI-CLOSED DECK, which was made for EURO and exported worldwide for FORD ASSEMBLY (incl partial US).


There is little info explaining all of this and the info is found piece by piece it seems.
So at this point a VEP will always be the semi-open slotted design and not based on the Mazda L? I am talking with the 3rd party shop regarding the reman block they provide, trying to get further details and I am wanting to explain why I am digging so hard and why it's important to know. Their response to my asking for more specifics so far is:
"There’s a Ford block out of the same era that yours is from. The company we purchase it from rebuilds them."

Being the same era doesn't say or mean much. I imagine if it turned out a VEP could still be the Mazda L and all I have is corrosion due to orange HOAT, it would probably be cheaper to have the head removed and block/head inspected for said corrosion and fixed vs replacing the engine with another engine potentially of the same slotted design which could still fail, even if orange coolant wasn't used, correct? From a recent thread I found the way to decode the engine manufacture date, so that 14G11 under the VEP 255 would mean mine was built July 11th 2014, for whatever that is worth.

I plan to stop by the Ford dealership on the way home to discuss this engine stuff with them too, to see what their cost is and get an estimate on how long they think it would take to get the block replaced if that's really what it is. I'll be asking them to look up the notes or provide the TSB they mentioned to see if it's the same as the 3rd party shop provided, which only mentions the 2017 and forward 3rd gens. Not sure that part even matters as I noted in one of the mentioned prior thread someone else noted Ford dropped the 2013-2016 Escapes from the TSB.

Edit: Also, if I were to purchase a 2.0L engine pulled from a 2020 or later Escape, would it be a drop in replacement? (Will be trying to research this myself as well, but figured I'd ask in case others here already know for sure.
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Also, if I were to purchase a 2.0L engine pulled from a 2020 or later Escape, would it be a drop in replacement? (Will be trying to research this myself as well, but figured I'd ask in case others here already know for sure.
Maybe the best way to approach this is to ask the PARTS DEPT exactly what new engine FORD issues for replacement for your car.

The MAZDA L, VEP and CLV engines are an unknown factor as it is hard to determine differing model years/types and changes. You would need at least the FORD PARTS CATALOG to determine that as the ONLINE CATALOGS are only partial for retail sales.

I very seriously doubt FORD is re-manning the older engines and has found a way to put a later engine in their place.

Current replacement engines seem to be 2020/ VEP, even though the CLV 1st GEN, 2nd GEN and VEP have different cylinder heads for the turbo mounting, just one difference. With the later engine a lot of faulty engineering is going to be by-passed.

If considering a 2020/ CLV take-out, price one first. Most likely they will be at about the same cost. A DEALER may not want to go this route.

The TSB's will not give a direct PN for the replacement engines as the engine seems to be subject to constant updates as to model years.

Watch this video. It is an EDGE being discussed and they came through with the 2nd GEN CLV (2015/ ) with the saw-tooth cooling passages that were subject to failure -


Keep us informed as you are the point man it seems in this situation.

And if what I have written makes little sense, ask me to explain it further as I need to know the answer(s) also.
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