2013+ Ford Escape Forum banner

41 - 60 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
2020 AWD Titanium Hybrid
Joined
·
25 Posts
Here’s my observation. I am not an expert but I turn off dual climate zone mode to get better gas mileage. I think the dual climate mode is just needed to reduce the number of driver/ passenger arguments. The cabin is so small and one person chooses 80F while the other chooses 76F, the net result is about 78F. No need to run two zones rather use the electricity to drive the wheels.
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
Good observation. Anything that prevents the ICE from running will improve mileage. I try to park with climate off so the engine stays off when I start. Below 32F, climate state doesn't seem to matter, engine's on right away. We'll see if 0F brings ICE-only operation. (Li-ion batteries can't charge below 32F, or discharge below 0F.) Maybe next week?
 

·
Registered
2020 AWD Titanium Hybrid
Joined
·
25 Posts
You and I view the world differently. You are the type of guy I want building my hybrid, eking out every last electron of power. I want the most efficient algorithm with the best artificial intelligence to reduce my operating costs without much input on my part. I think all hybrids do this well and I don’t think a conscientious human in the loop can improve efficiency significantly. There are too many variables to juggle like temperature, road conditions, head winds, tail winds, tires, and such things that I don’t know anything about. The driver can only steer, accelerate and brake. Some systems might be a little better than others but they are all pretty good. I bought the escape because I prefer the Ford system design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
There is no algorithm to address a few too many pounds of the car and the driver. Reduce the weight and gain more mpgs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
There is no algorithm to address a few too many pounds of the car and the driver. Reduce the weight and gain more mpgs.
Not sure how that has to with driving style, but removing weight will improve mpg's some. Improving aerodynamics will increase mpg's alot more like installing Grill and Wheel covers.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
Not sure how that has to with driving style, but removing weight will improve mpg's some. Improving aerodynamics will increase mpg's alot more like installing Grill and Wheel covers.

Paul
Prius is at least 600 pounds less and it's mpg much higher. Even if you get eAWD. The point is you can do better with less size/weight without some special algorithms and driving style.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Prius is at least 600 pounds less and it's mpg much higher. Even if you get eAWD. The point is you can do better with less size/weight without some special algorithms and driving style.
Prius is 3010lbs to 3220lbs and FEH is 3534lbs which is 314lbs to 514lbs just to be accurate. Someone interested in a 2020 FEH wouldn't be interested in Prius, to small. I still get better MPG's(53mpg's) than a Prius too without sacrificing the extra room.

Paul
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
...the type of guy I want building my hybrid ...
... is an engineer.
I don’t think a conscientious human in the loop can improve efficiency significantly. There are too many variables to juggle like temperature, road conditions, head winds, tail winds, tires, and such things that I don’t know anything about. The driver can only steer, accelerate and brake. ...
Good points, but I was able to learn. This data is all from a daily commute over the same rural 2-lane path.
MPG v Temp rural thru winter 150229.jpg

  • Baseline is the 2nd-5th month of ownership, Fall 2013. I gave myself 30 days to learn, then started measuring.
  • Snow14 was the following Winter running Michelin X-Ice3 snows.
  • Sum_14_ADSk is the following Summer, with some under-car aero mods installed. Unlike Paul's car, my aero mods didn't help and didn't stay on. What changed was my driving style.

What did I learn? To accelerate more slowly, so I charged the HVB at a higher rate, for a longer period of time. Makes beautiful music in the Escape, too.

I bought the escape because I prefer the Ford system design.
Me, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
Prius is 3010lbs to 3220lbs and FEH is 3534lbs which is 314lbs to 514lbs just to be accurate. Someone interested in a 2020 FEH would be interested in Prius, to small. I still get better MPG's(53mpg's) than a Prius too without sacrificing the extra room.

Paul
The point is smaller and less weight is always going to be more efficient, no algorithm is going to solve that. The reason you get better mpgs then Prius is purely your driving style, you would simply get better then rated mpgs with any car.
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
There is no algorithm to address a few too many pounds of the car and the driver. Reduce the weight and gain more mpgs.
Not necessarily, anymore. This is very true of conventional drivetrains, before regenerative braking.

Once you add an energy recovery system, mass effect drops by the efficiency of the recovery system. As I recall, the C-Max was ~80% efficient (AC generate, invert, DC charge, DC discharge, invert, AC drive). In the data I posted above, I'm getting 5.5% regen return with a 95%+ regen score. (Ask me what that did to my conventional brakes.)

Plus, weight only matters to rolling resistance (no aerodynamic or combustion effects) and RR losses are insensitive to speed and load. Its great impact is on acceleration, and recovery on deceleration mitigates a large fraction of the kinematic loss. Hybrids are different.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
Not necessarily, anymore. This is very true of conventional drivetrains, before regenerative braking.
Weight affecting efficiency isn't going anywhere. Simple physics. Good example is Rav4 (~3800 lbs and 41 mpg city) vs Highlander & Sienna (~2600 lbs 35 mpg city) which comes up to ~800 pounds less or 15% more efficient for Rav4. Since we have a drop of about 2% in gas economy for each 100 pounds, then we can roughly calculate that 15% drop. Of course there are other variables since engines are bit more powerful in Sienna/Highlander, but still the point is still valid here that less weight gives us better mpgs.
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
The reason you get better mpgs then Prius is purely your driving style, ...
That's a false statement.

1) Prius vehicle is smaller. Drag force is1/2 x Cd x Speed^2 x rho (mass density) x CA (cross-sectional area, HxW)
  • 2014 Prius height x width = 58.7 x 68.7 = 4033 sq. in.
  • C-Max height x width = 63.9 x 72 = 4601 sq. in. (14%> Prius)
  • Escape height x width = 68.6 x 74 = 5076 sq. in. (26%> Prius)

2) Prius Cd (drag coefficient) is lower. It historically falls with each generation through the 0.3-0.24 range. C-Max was touted as 0.30 Cd while I've not seen anything for the new Escape, so I'd estimate it at 0.35 Cd. That's another 25% and 45% advantage to a moving Prius

3) Prius engine is smaller, and a true hybrid in that early generations had small motors and could not accelerate by EV.
Great teardown videos of all Prius and Ford hybrid drivetrains here, including some recent Honda units. HF45 may be next?

The small motors in early Prii along with the small ICE point to a "helper" design strategy: take a very efficient gas engine and improve its efficiency with motor/generators. First Gen Prii were slow, and that's always been efficient. The most powerful makes 134 HP and it's still 10 sec. 0-60.

4) Even Consumer Reports gets good mileage.
But they also note "Lackluster acceleration" and "Feels insubstantial for the price" as lows in the 2020.

I'll stick with the Escape!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
That's a false statement.
That's fake news for sure

1) Prius vehicle is smaller. Drag force is1/2 x Cd x Speed^2 x rho (mass density) x CA (cross-sectional area, HxW)
  • 2014 Prius height x width = 58.7 x 68.7 = 4033 sq. in.
  • C-Max height x width = 63.9 x 72 = 4601 sq. in. (14%> Prius)
  • Escape height x width = 68.6 x 74 = 5076 sq. in. (26%> Prius)

2) Prius Cd (drag coefficient) is lower. It historically falls with each generation through the 0.3-0.24 range. C-Max was touted as 0.30 Cd while I've not seen anything for the new Escape, so I'd estimate it at 0.35 Cd. That's another 25% and 45% advantage to a moving Prius
You do realize that kind of coefficient is barely 1-2 mpg improvement? Weight still has bigger impact among other things.

I'll stick with the Escape!
Well, that's the only valid statement
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
... Simple physics....
That's fake news for sure
I'm one two posts behind your misconceptions. My last post has more-complete physics in it. Do you realize you've marked yourself?

And I see you're on a roll!

Let's put this to bed.
Gen3 Prius got 44 MPG (EPA 48 MPG) in CR testing, weighed 3115 lb.
Gen4 Prius got 52 mpg (EPA 52 mpg) in CR testing, weighed 3080 lb.

WOW 25% for only 25 lb.!! If that were the case, passengers would matter!!

In fact, most of Toyota's improvement comes from the same place as Ford's... better ICE management. Gen4 is an updated 1.8L 2ZR-FXE. As you know, Ford upped displacement 200 cc from HF35 to HF45. This is where smart engineers look, at "low hanging fruit." ICE is >40% efficient. More than 150% of the energy is wasted.

(PS. Your RAV4-Highlander example is missing the drivetrain and vehicle size factors that drive this kind of thing.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
Let's put this to bed.
Gen3 Prius got 44 MPG (EPA 48 MPG) in CR testing, weighed 3115 lb.
Gen4 Prius got 52 mpg (EPA 52 mpg) in CR testing, weighed 3080 lb.

WOW 25% for only 25 lb.!! If that were the case, passengers would matter!!
haha, are you serious? How about comparing Gen1 to Gen4, I think it suits better for your silly comparison of generations.

(PS. Your RAV4-Highlander example is missing the drivetrain and vehicle size factors that drive this kind of thing.)
That kind of thing is a few keyboard strokes away if you want to do your own research. A bit of a hint I used all top trims with AWD. The difference in size / coefficient drag has negligible impact for all 3. It's the best comparison available to make the point that weight is still a big factor for efficiency.
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
...weight is still a big factor for efficiency.
I pulled this efficiency data for normally aspirated engines from the attached SAE report .
SAE Excerpt ICE BTE 2006-now.jpg

Highlighted areas are 34% Brake Thermal Efficiency. Not only are new engines more efficient, they have larger operating ranges that exceed historical best of a decade earlier, with large, low-torque operating range. I also attached a report on a 2018 Toyota Camry engine that gives you details behind the prototype above.

I expect Ford has similar efficiency maps for the 2.5L in the Escape Hybrid. It's why I'm getting better mileage than I did in the smaller, lighter C-Max.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
I pulled this efficiency data for normally aspirated engines from the attached SAE report .
View attachment 79196
Highlighted areas are 34% Brake Thermal Efficiency. Not only are new engines more efficient, they have larger operating ranges that exceed historical best of a decade earlier, with large, low-torque operating range. I also attached a report on a 2018 Toyota Camry engine that gives you details behind the prototype above.

I expect Ford has similar efficiency maps for the 2.5L in the Escape Hybrid. It's why I'm getting better mileage than I did in the smaller, lighter C-Max.
No one disputing that newer engines are getting a bit more efficient but you are missing the point about the weight. Load up your Escape with 400+ pounds (4 people in the car and cargo) and compare results without it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
The FEH is a little lighter than CMAX FWD, but a little heavier 4WD. Weight doesn't make a big difference on level ground, but more so on hilly roads.

Paul
 

·
Registered
2020 Escape Hybrid Titanium
Joined
·
480 Posts
I routinely bring in 150-300 lb. loads, doubling the load on one leg of a round trip. Any weight effect is swamped by speed, terrain and weather differences.

C-Max reported trip regen "savings." I saw no more than a 9% effect on routes with a lot of stops.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
I routinely bring in 150-300 lb. loads, doubling the load on one leg of a round trip. Any weight effect is swamped by speed, terrain and weather differences.

C-Max reported trip regen "savings." I saw no more than a 9% effect on routes with a lot of stops.
9%! See my post 51 just proves my point that weight is always going to be the biggest culprit multiplied by terrain/speed/weather.
 
41 - 60 of 80 Posts
Top