[HayaiKuruma]

I'm not a mechanic in any stretch of the imagination, but it sounds from the videos and comments that using premium fuel, synthetic oil changes and reving the engine up to 5000 RPM on a good long stretch of highway can help push out timing. Maybe instead of 20K, it shows up at 40K?

Maybe. I've got 41,000 miles with no problems. Only premium fuel has ever crossed her lips. Switched to synthetic at 20,000.

 

[centex]

Maybe. I've got 41,000 miles with no problems. Only premium fuel has ever crossed her lips. Switched to synthetic at 20,000.

Very glad to hear of 41k with no problems!

Not sure what effect the fuel would have on this specific situation since it never touches the back of the intake valves and I struggle to see how the improved timing/boost/etc it allows (all factors inside the combustion chamber) would help with carbon outside the chamber. Perhaps the full synth has something to do with reduced carbon, I went to it with my first oil change for other reasons and can only hope it delays this problem, too.

I'm always interested in auto tech, issues, etc and find this matter fascinating as I learn about DI (with pros and cons becoming more obvious over time, imagine that! ;-)

But insofar as this specific issue and Me, as mentioned in another thread this is the first vehicle I've ever bought with an ESP (7Y/100k), so all my eggs are committed to that basket. Any sort of home-brew drivetrain mod is off the table for my E because of that. All I know to do / plan to do is POR (Press On Regardless), just doing the best standard maintenance I know to do and enjoying the heck out of the E until ... and then hope for the best.

BTW oldschool .... perhaps looking into an ESP could give you a form of long-term confidence albeit at a price? Search "Flood Ford ESP" for what many are finding is the best deal on those.

 

[shift2drive]

Very glad to hear of 41k with no problems!

Not sure what effect the fuel would have on this specific situation since it never touches the back of the intake valves and I struggle to see how the improved timing/boost/etc it allows (all factors inside the combustion chamber) would help with carbon outside the chamber. Perhaps the full synth has something to do with reduced carbon, I went to it with my first oil change for other reasons and can only hope it delays this problem, too.

Full synthetic would help with temperature changes, premium will do nothing (as you said, it doesn't touch the back of the intake valves, therefore additives will have 0 effect).

I know this is an inherit flaw of DI engines but I'm not sold this type of carbon build-up will be a linear effect. Would need more data to determine if all owners should be concerned.

 

[leadmic]

Yes, I am well aware that this is his vehicle, since he mentions it in the video. I am actually referring to the countless other videos he has posted. His step by step videos are well done.

BTW, he dos a complete video showing the use of the extraction tool for broken spark plugs.

On a side note, I scored on 2 1/2 cases of motorcraft LV transmission fluid on craigslist for $60. My point is, when I met the guy and got to talking, he told me he is a ford mechanic. He told me he uses a better extraction tool than the one Ford supplies.

I hope you didn't think me rude with my comment as that was not my intent. I apologize if that was the case. I didn't know that you knew the gentleman personally and if you had caught his comment on the video.
If anyone has a three valve 5.4l with over 60,000miles on it with original spark plugs get yourself the Lisle (LIS65600) broken spark plug removal tool you will need it. Also Champion makes a one piece spark plug so you never have to use that tool again.
Back to the problem at hand. I read that Ford was playing with the VCT to cause the intake valve to to open a little sooner or later to cause a cleaning/cooling effect that was suppose to help with carbon build-up. I can't seem to find the article again, but I will post it when I do.
I think the type of driving and your driving style is going to have a lot to do with this problem.
Mark

 

[HayaiKuruma]

Very glad to hear of 41k with no problems!

BTW oldschool .... perhaps looking into an ESP could give you a form of long-term confidence albeit at a price? Search "Flood Ford ESP" for what many are finding is the best deal on those.

I got a Premium ESP from Ford for free. I had a misaligned hatch and other small issues, did my due diligence with customer care and Ford took care of me.

 

[KGB]

I think the type of driving and your driving style is going to have a lot to do with this problem.
Mark

I'm with you on the comment about driving type and style being a lot to do with the problem. Based on what I've read over the last couple of years, and the teardown of the F-150 EB engine that went through endurance testing, I think a DI engine that gets mostly highway miles and few short around town miles will probably do OK. I think a DI engine that has a lot of short trips and doesn't get fully warmed up will probably do poorly. That's one of the reasons that I was happy to stick with the 2.5l since my commute to work is 3.5 miles and I'm not confident that the DI engines would do well over the 10+ years that I like to keep a vehicle.

 

[Cthrewu]

What's your take on these videos?

Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0irwbwpuEbQ

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2eXdaydqI

I saw these a while back when the guy first put them up. There was a big discussion on another forum I frequent regarding the known issue of carbon buildup on the valves for DI motors. Many manufacturers have had or are still having similar issues with the design flaw. Having to R&R a heads on a DI motor for this is ridiculous. Some have done the walnut shell blasting with ok results.

Hopefully I won't have to endure any of this as my usual game plan is to trade out of the vehicle in a year or two. I haven't hit anything north of 33,000 miles on any of my trades. Last one only had 12,000 on it. I would hope that Ford would decide to release some info for what they plan to do with these vehicles when they have to have this issue addressed.

Are they going to R&R the head for you under warranty? Perform some type of induction or valve cleaning service at no charge? All good questions for Ford Customer Service.

 

[HayaiKuruma]

I hope you didn't think me rude with my comment as that was not my intent. I apologize if that was the case. I didn't know that you knew the gentleman personally and if you had caught his comment on the video.
Mark

Nope, didn't think you were being rude at all. Just mentioning that I took note of the fact that he was using his vehicle in this particular video. Never said I knew him personally, just that I think his videos are well done. And he has done quite a few of them. You can contact him if you have any specific questions. He has always answered my queries.

And that you very much for that info on the plug removal tool. I will have to keep an eye out on ebay and the like. As far as these plugs, looks like I'm changing mine early, just to be safe.

 

[FordService]

I saw these a while back when the guy first put them up. There was a big discussion on another forum I frequent regarding the known issue of carbon buildup on the valves for DI motors. Many manufacturers have had or are still having similar issues with the design flaw. Having to R&R a heads on a DI motor for this is ridiculous. Some have done the walnut shell blasting with ok results.

Hopefully I won't have to endure any of this as my usual game plan is to trade out of the vehicle in a year or two. I haven't hit anything north of 33,000 miles on any of my trades. Last one only had 12,000 on it. I would hope that Ford would decide to release some info for what they plan to do with these vehicles when they have to have this issue addressed.

Are they going to R&R the head for you under warranty? Perform some type of induction or valve cleaning service at no charge? All good questions for Ford Customer Service.

Hello Cthrewu,

Since I am not a certified technician, I recommend setting an appointment and having your Escape diagnosed at your nearest Ford Dealer.

Your service manager will be in the best position to look into any warranty, assistance, recalls, or customer satisfaction programs that may apply to your vehicle.

You can find the nearest dealer and set up an appointment here.

Have a great day!

Tricia

 

[Grimmage]

I called it guys. Months ago.

 

[leadmic]

I called it guys. Months ago.

Yes sir you did, and you are the person we need to talk to.
If you don't mind, what kind of driving do you do? (In town, open hwy, wide open throttle, pulling hills or a trailer) Have you had any turbo issues after cleaning your intake valves with the chemical you used? How many miles sense it was cleaned? Any reoccurring issues sense you cleaned your valves?
Any advice or anything you could add, sense your the only one known on this board so far that has done the cleaning.
Thank you
Mark

 

[centex]

I called it guys. Months ago.

The thread to which you refer is this one?
http://www.fordescape.org/forum/problems-solutions/19137-2014-2-0-misfire-3000rpm.html

 

[Grimmage]

Yes sir you did, and you are the person we need to talk to.
If you don't mind, what kind of driving do you do? (In town, open hwy, wide open throttle, pulling hills or a trailer) Have you had any turbo issues after cleaning your intake valves with the chemical you used? How many miles sense it was cleaned? Any reoccurring issues sense you cleaned your valves?
Any advice or anything you could add, sense your the only one known on this board so far that has done the cleaning.
Thank you
Mark

Be happy to share:

My M-F commute consists of approximately 10 miles each way. In the AM, the commute is wide-open freeway @ about 60. In the afternoon, things change from bad to worse. Stop and go, long idle times, low speeds. I am a spirited driver by nature - my dad's hydro-plane racing blood flows through me. When traffic is light, you'll usually find me in sport mode and in boost too.

I did just pull my 17ft boat for the first time since purchasing the Escape in March. It did BEAUTIFULLY. Even broke all four tires loose when taking off from a stop on a steep hill. No issues there. Being in the PAC NW, there are hills around every bend, and probably influence my poor fuel mileage (18-23 city/25-27 hwy). When I had my shop foreman check out my intake valves, he took pictures with his boroscope that showed definite carbon build-up on ALL of the valves at just 22k miles. Then we proceeded to soak the intake valves in a heavy duty throttle body cleaner. Let that sit for about an hour, and then used a small brush to remove what we could. Re-assembled everything and then hooked up the BG induction system cleaning tool and ran it behind the turbo, so as not to bung up the impeller blades/seals. Started the car - plumes of smoke showed up indicating a large burn-off. Hopped on the freeway and gave it the floorboard treatment. I noted several instances of hesitation/inconsistencies in the power band both before and after the service. Those symptoms dissipated before long though, and lo and behold the engine ran MUCH smoother at idle, and light-throttle application produced impressive response.

That said. 4,000 miles after the service was done, the intermittent rough idle is back, and the power-band inconsistencies have returned. If I plant my foot at 2/3 throttle, I can feel the turbo surging and then returning to a lower boost throughout the rpm band.

Needless to say I'm not real happy - and my local dealer here is playing dumb about my reported symptoms. They can't even confirm an oil leak from the turbo oil supply banjo-fitting that my techs found during my LOF at 25k miles.

My shop uses the same BG chemical system that the Ford Tech was describing in his video. BG has just released what they tout as a "GDI Oil Change Package" that I will be trying from here on out with every single oil change I do on my FE. Will try to keep you guys posted on how it works out. (picture attached) If these chemicals do nothing to help reduce/eliminate carbon build-up, I guess I'll just remind Ford of my 100k mile powertrain warranty. I'll take it all the way to Michigan if they try to fight me on a cylinder head replacement if/when this becomes a bigger issue.

Hope some of this rambling mess was informative. I've attached pics to show the carbon build-up and the bg package.

 

[Grimmage]

The thread to which you refer is this one?
http://www.fordescape.org/forum/problems-solutions/19137-2014-2-0-misfire-3000rpm.html

That is correct.

 

[centex]

Thanks for sharing, Grimmage, just a few Q's for my education:

..... Then we proceeded to soak the intake valves in a heavy duty throttle body cleaner. Let that sit for about an hour, and then used a small brush to remove what we could.

This procedure was done via the intake ports, head in place, intake valves closed so in general all the fluids and residue stayed out of the cylinders and was sucked-out from above. Maybe a tad bit of weep of the TBC into the cylinders is all. Do I have that right?

..... Re-assembled everything and then hooked up the BG induction system cleaning tool and ran it behind the turbo, so as not to bung up the impeller blades/seals.

So the BG cleaning fluid is forced into the intake/plenum somewhere downstream (in terms of intake air flow direction) of the pressurizing ('cold') side of the turbo and upstream of the intake ports in the head. The residual of the cleaning process passes out the exhaust ports, through the driven ('hot') side of the turbo then through the cats and out the tailpipe. Do I have that right?

In the OP's clips, when potential turbo damage relating to induction cleaning was mentioned, I never imagined that a cleaning solution would be introduced upstream of the 'cold' side of the turbo and therefore the referenced damage risk was on the 'cold' side of the turbo :-0. Is it common to introduce cleaners upstream of the turbo?

Because of my (mis-)understanding of how cleaners are usually introduced, I assumed (that dangerous word) the risk was to the 'hot' side of the turbo. Maybe you can comment on that?

Thanks again for sharing your experience / expertise.

 

[leadmic]

My take on the video was damage to the hot side of turbo via chunks of carbon going through it also.
On another note I found a article about the newer DI engine changes by Ford, GM, and others to help prevent this.
Its a good read. Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver
Mark

 

[centex]

....
Its a good read. Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver
Mark

+1, thanks for the link.

Among other interesting things the article highlighted that in my earlier ramble I completely forgot about EGR which is another source of intake hydrocarbons on top of PCV :redface: .

With the suggestion that there might be benefits relating to this issue in tweaked combustion event timing (fuel injection, valve and ignition), I can't help but wonder if those benefits could be 'retrofitted' to some extent via ECM re-programming. Obviously the valve timing changes allowed by the Escape's Ti-VCT variable valve timing system are limited and the cam profile is fixed, but one can hope .... ;-)

 

[Grimmage]

Thanks for sharing, Grimmage, just a few Q's for my education:
This procedure was done via the intake ports, head in place, intake valves closed so in general all the fluids and residue stayed out of the cylinders and was sucked-out from above. Maybe a tad bit of weep of the TBC into the cylinders is all. Do I have that right?

So the BG cleaning fluid is forced into the intake/plenum somewhere downstream (in terms of intake air flow direction) of the pressurizing ('cold') side of the turbo and upstream of the intake ports in the head. The residual of the cleaning process passes out the exhaust ports, through the driven ('hot') side of the turbo then through the cats and out the tailpipe. Do I have that right?

In the OP's clips, when potential turbo damage relating to induction cleaning was mentioned, I never imagined that a cleaning solution would be introduced upstream of the 'cold' side of the turbo and therefore the referenced damage risk was on the 'cold' side of the turbo :-0. Is it common to introduce cleaners upstream of the turbo?

Because of my (mis-)understanding of how cleaners are usually introduced, I assumed (that dangerous word) the risk was to the 'hot' side of the turbo. Maybe you can comment on that?

Thanks again for sharing your experience / expertise.

My pleasure. The solution and carbon that has been broken free does get sent through the exhaust system. If what leadmic says is true about the hot side of the turbo being damaged, I'll be really careful. Or, I'd just tow-it to ford and say "it runs rough, lack of power" and let them give me a new turbo. I'd like to see them prove I had anything to do with it.

 

[Cthrewu]

My take on the video was damage to the hot side of turbo via chunks of carbon going through it also.
On another note I found a article about the newer DI engine changes by Ford, GM, and others to help prevent this.
Its a good read. Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver
Mark

My experience with intake system cleaners is that they do get passed onto the hot side of the turbo. Many moons ago I ran a shop in which we used BG induction cleaning products. They work well in cleaning the induction system but all of that trash is then passed into the exhaust. This resulted in quite a few ruined catalytic converters and one occasion of a customer coming back because his dealer said the product caused overheating of his turbo and resulting bearing damage.

Like I said in my other post the only safe and successful method I've seen involves walnut shell blasting in a closed loop to remove the deposits. This is what BMW uses to clean DI vehicles. I think with Fords now prolific use of DI motors for fuel economy it is only a matter of time before they have to address the issue. I personally would not use any type of induction cleaner for fear that it would void the warranty on the turbo or any other components that get damaged by the cleaning process. If you start to experience problems associated with buildup of carbon on the valves exercise that warranty.

BMW N54 Engine Intake Valve Cleaning with Walnut Shell Blasting Equipment - YouTube

 

[Mike134]

Engines have come full circle

Back in 60s it was almost a given at 100,000 miles time for a new engine. Seems we've gone back to that time.