I don't know. Ford doesn't want to take responsibility for any insurance issues related to a fire. I think we should communicate to Ford that we want the same deal the Kuga owners got, gas coupon and a new battery immediately

 

We’ve decided to go ICE only until a resolution. Our situation differs from most I’m sure. We may have the opportunity to put maybe 5-600 electric miles on it the next 3-4 months. That’s because we aren’t driving it as much. With gas costs around us it’s about $.085 cents a mile to drive on gas and about $.045 cents a mile on home charged electric. So it’s “costing “ us $.04 cents a mile to adhere to Fords request to not plug in. Doing the math it figures to be about $20-$30 “ out of pocket “. Still not happy about it and will complain to them but for the $20-$30 it’s not worth the hassle IF something were to happen. Again I know everyone’s situation is different and respect their decision.

 

What about the health of the 14.4 kWh HVB being forced to operate as if it's a 1.1 kWh hybrid battery pack?

What about the health of the deep sleepy 12v battery that asks for an independent charge from the L2 every day the car isn't driven, takes a charge with every HVB charge and also during every departure routine/cabin preconditioning?

 

We're screwed in Canada. No lemon laws. I still think we ought to ***** and complain to get the same deal Ford gave the Limeys, gas coupon and battery exchange. I'll ask my lawyer friend.

 

Here is a copy of a letter I just sent to Jim Farley:

Mr. James D. Farley, CEO
Ford Motor Company
1 American Rd
Dearborn, MI 48126

Re: 2023 Ford Escape PHEV; VIN 1FMCU0E19PUA07935
Safety Recall Notice 24S79/NHTSA Recall 24V954

Dear Mr. Farley;

By way of introduction, I am a recent new Ford customer. After many years of so-called “foreign” vehicle ownership, I decided my dollars should favor “American” products.

After learning of PHEV technology, I thought it would be a terrific stopgap between our fossil fuel past and our electrified future. Following social media posts and other research, I decided that an Escape PHEV would serve my family’s needs. In 2022, I ordered a ’23 model. After several months, and paying full retail, the vehicle arrived, about half way through the model year. Today, the vehicle has about 11,000 miles on it.

Although I have received other recalls, the latest, noted above, has pretty much set me off. Having spent a career in business, I am always hesitant to be too critical of any issue as I know that there are always two sides and that social media tends to be hysterical. That said, I am especially disappointed in my Ford Escape experience so far, for the following reasons:

• Hybrid technology can hardly be considered “leading edge”.
• Plug-in Hybrids have been on the market long enough for any mechanical/electrical issues to have been sufficiently addressed.
• The recall noted above directs me to stop using the Plug-in feature. As I understand it, other than totally losing the benefit of purchasing a PHEV, not keeping the battery charged causes degradation, especially in the cold weather. I do appreciate the fact that this recall lessens the chances that the vehicle will burn my house down.
• According to the recall, it could be as long as 3.5 months before a fix is determined.
• I have no doubt that recalls (especially this one) will prematurely diminish the value of my vehicle. It is doubtful that it even has any trade in value as long as this recall is hanging over the vehicle.
• I'm not happy carrying around an additional 385# (curb weight difference between PHEV and regular hybrid) until a fix is determined.

In closing, may I suggest that your marketing/advertising departments and your engineering departments get together for lunch occasionally and come up with a more viable marketing campaign that avoids the use of the noun “quality”. This gives the advertising business a bad name.

Very truly yours,

 

• I have no doubt that recalls (especially this one) will prematurely diminish the value of my vehicle. It is doubtful that it even has any trade in value as long as this recall is hanging over the vehicle.

Nice letter. Please let us know if you get a response.

My 2020 Santa Fe that I bought during early corona in 2019 (for dirt cheap) is now worth more than this fancyass PHEV I ordered for my wife in early 2022 and wasn't delivered until November 2022. I guess that wasn't such a great plan.

 

Given the nature of the modern (American) world, I suspect that the "do not charge the high-voltage battery" directive from Ford is about 99.7% "CYA," given that no fires have yet been reported. I can't say I blame them, though. If they had said anything else, including "merely" strongly advising that owners of affected vehicles stop charging their batteries, and somebody actually had a fire, you can bet that the ambulance chasers would take no more than about 60 seconds to file a massive class action suit charging (pun intended) that Ford not saying "don't charge your car or you may die a horrible, fiery death!" was insufficient notice of the dangers that owners faced, and that affected owners are entitled to $1Trillion (USD...more CAD) in actual and punitive damages (a third of which will go to the lawyers, of course).

We all have different tolerance for risk. I wonder how many of us that are affected will say to ourselves, "The odds are WAAAAAAY in our favor, so screw it, I'm charging the vehicle as I have always done"?

 

So here is what I don't understand about the "don't charge the HVB" dictum... the vehicle doesn't have an "ICE only" mode, so when I'm in "normal" (i.e., hybrid) mode, the HVB is getting charged by the alternator, whether I like it or not. Presumably, to maximize gas mileage, the maximum SOC when the battery is charged by the alternator has to be pretty similar to the maximum SOC when charged via the plug, right? So, if I'm right about that, the only difference between alternator charging and "plug it in" charging should be the rate of charge. The alternator's rate of charge may well be less than 220v charging, but can it really be less than 110v charging? If not, what safety benefit, exactly, is achieved by not using the 110v charger but only using alternator charging?

 

In the normal “Auto EV” mode, the battery will discharge to the lower limit of battery charge and stay close to that low charge state if the vehicle continues to be driven without plugging it in for a charge.

Only the “EV Charge” mode increases the average battery charge level while driving but doesn’t allow the battery to get close to 100% charge level.

 

Protected 18650 lithium cells have a nominal voltage of 3.6 to 3.7 volts. When new and fully charged they're 4.25 volts. When they're discharged, most are allowed to go to 2.5 volts and then they're cut off until recharged. Many devices have the chips to protect non-protected cells. Shutting down to stop accepting power. Cells that are allowed to go below the minimum by having no protection are damaged. The more often this happens and the longer they stay in a state of low charge, the more severe and irrecoverable the damage becomes. Plus, that's what makes them dangerous.

I don't know how this relates to hundreds of pounds of cells wired up to provide hundreds of volts of DC power but I'm not comfortable with this "no plug" order unless Ford tells us Samsung SDI is going to replace our soon to be damaged batteries or they provide some truth and guidance on how it's safe for our cars NOT to be plugged in as needed. I'll be playing along but on my own terms.

I'm not comfortable with my wife driving a car that cannot properly charge the 12 volt battery on it's own. I don't want her driving something that can leave her stranded due to deep sleep mode caused by the totally inadequate 12 volt battery that can't be properly charged when operating this thing in HEV mode. That's a lot more real and worrisome than having some hypothetical vent event or fire fantasy that may have happened a few times in europe or wherever.

So, I'll be plugging in our L2 charger for certain things and will control it as I see the need. I've reduced the charge rate to 6 amps from my usual 8 out of 32 the charger can provide. This slows it to a max of 1600 watts going to the car on our 250+ line power. As I learn more, I'll reduce the charge to the traction battery to a lower level using FordPass. I may drop it to 50% soon to see what that looks like. The car will continue to be plugged in to receive the regular 12 volt battery charging it requires to remain healthy. This is the same behavior it's exhibited since day 1 and the 12v battery has not caused a problem. I can't believe Ford is so stupid they want to blow off this very important function because of their rabidassed panic attack.

As the screenshot shows, this car wants the 12V battery charged any day it's not driven and requires no charge of the HVB. The car calls for the charge needed to keep it healthy. See it happen on Saturday and Sunday. It also tops up the 12V during the departure routine. The car takes what it needs when it's plugged in and able.

The car will continue to be plugged in and running the departure routines to keep my wife comfortable and ensure the 12 volt battery is ready for the day. This is even if I decide to quit charging the traction battery.

 

View attachment 86576

Is that screenshot from the Android version of Fordpass? My iPhone version doesn't look anything like that and gives a lot less information.

 

I'm not sure I understand is the logic behind restricting the SOC of the traction battery to ~15% in HV mode. The whole point of an HEV is to get greater efficiency by charging the battery through various means, including regenerative braking and using the ICE engine when it's running, right? Obviously, an HEV has a traction battery that is far less capacious than in a PHEV.But given that the PHEV battery is so much more capacious, why isn't it more energy efficient to let the PHEV, when running in HV mode, charge the traction battery to its maximum (useful) capacity, just as in an HEV?

 

I'm not sure I understand is the logic behind restricting the SOC of the traction battery to ~15% in HV mode.

The car goes to HV mode when the traction battery depletes useable EV range. At this point the real battery SOC is about 15% max. And without plugging in and not using the Charge Mode, the car will not charge the battery beyond this point. It just maintains at that SOC. The behavior is similar if you use EV Later Mode to preserve SOC. The car run on HV mode, but will not charge the battery. It only maintains the current SOC. Charging the battery using gas engine is inefficient.

But, if you happens to live at the top of mountain, and if you let the gravity roll your car down a long hill, then yes the regen will charge the battery all the way to 100% SOC without using any gas. In theory, this would be just as bad or even worse than plugging in the vehicle to charge. But there are not many places you can do this.

 

4 years ago Ford UK set a precedent by giving owners of KUGA PHEV's $500 and eventually replacing ALL the batteries.

"as a gesture of goodwill we want to acknowledge that the fuel economy of your car may not be what you have expected when you took delivery of your cougar phev to that end we're going to be sending you a fuel card for use at bp filling stations to the value of 500 pounds for use with your kuka phev this is an appreciation of your loyalty us while we work on the situation"

"Ford is communicating with all our Kuga PHEV customers across Europe that we now have a fix for the issue related to the drive battery pack. This fix will be a replacement of the entire drive battery pack with a new pack as a result of our investigations with our supplier," the statement reads.

"We will commence the drive battery replacement work towards the end of December for customers who already have their vehicles and expect this process to take until late March to complete," Ford stated. "We will be communicating with customers directly later in November to arrange a time to implement the replacement."

The statement from Ford also points to an issue in the production of the car's battery, which is sourced from an external supplier"

Ford Kuga Plug-In Hybrid recall: the latest details | DrivingElectric

Ford has recalled a number of its Kuga plug-in hybrids over safety concerns. Here's everything you need to know

www.drivingelectric.com

 

4 years ago Ford UK set a precedent by giving owners of KUGA PHEV's $500 and eventually replacing ALL the batteries.

"as a gesture of goodwill we want to acknowledge that the fuel economy of your car may not be what you have expected when you took delivery of your cougar phev to that end we're going to be sending you a fuel card for use at bp filling stations to the value of 500 pounds for use with your kuka phev this is an appreciation of your loyalty us while we work on the situation"

"Ford is communicating with all our Kuga PHEV customers across Europe that we now have a fix for the issue related to the drive battery pack. This fix will be a replacement of the entire drive battery pack with a new pack as a result of our investigations with our supplier," the statement reads.

"We will commence the drive battery replacement work towards the end of December for customers who already have their vehicles and expect this process to take until late March to complete," Ford stated. "We will be communicating with customers directly later in November to arrange a time to implement the replacement."

The statement from Ford also points to an issue in the production of the car's battery, which is sourced from an external supplier"

Ford Kuga Plug-In Hybrid recall: the latest details | DrivingElectric

Ford has recalled a number of its Kuga plug-in hybrids over safety concerns. Here's everything you need to know

www.drivingelectric.com

 

Plug in hybrid technology has been around since 2008, hybrids since the late 1990's. That being said, battery cells fail. They fail in hybrids, plug in hybrids, and EVs. Overall, the liklihood of a catastrophic event is miniscule.

 

For those of you who choose to ignore this latest notice, should your vehicle experience a "thermo" event (very highly unlikely) and burn down your house, no lawyer is going to take your case. You vehicle will "tattle" on you and Ford will show that you charged your vehicle against their warning. Hopefully the solution will be that Samsung will just replace the bad batteries and Ford will install them, someday. But if Ford were to issue debit cards for the extra gasoline we will have to use over the next few? months it would go a long way towards gaining back some goodwill they have lost during this debacle.

 

They set the precedent in UK when they gave $500 gas cards AND replaced batteries in KUGA PHEV's. My lawyer acquaintance is looking into it

 

Do you know who the battery supplier was back then? Not sure if Ford ($37.43 Bn USD) has enough weight to successfully push around Samsung SDI ($10.88 Bn USD).

I've asked two local dealership managers if they know anything about compensation from Ford and/or Samsung. They've heard nothing so far.

 

I work in the battery industry (although much smaller than PHEVs), and to me the limiting of plug in charging makes sense. They are trying to limit the chance of thermal runaway (fancy term for battery fire) in both the cell with the short circuit and adjacent cells.

There have been numerous studies done that higher the state of charge a lithium ion battery is, the more likely it is to experience thermal runaway under abusive conditions. The Department of Transportation, for instance, requires all lithium ion batteries to be maximum 30% state of charge to be shipped by air.
This would also mean that shouldn't charge the battery while driving either.

So in summary, I don't think that not charging the battery would make the cell less likely to have an internal short circuit and vent, it just means that if that does happen a fire is less likely.

 

I think the question for me is whether leaving the traction battery UNcharged will shorten the life of the battery. I know that one shouldn’t discharge Li ion batteries to 0%, but using the vehicle as an HEV should keep the battery around 15% SOC (according to other posters). Knowing next to nothing about battery chemistry, I’m wondering if that is sufficient to maintain the long-term health of the battery.

 

So, if I understand correctly, the issue is that in affected vehicles, some of the cells in the traction battery may be prone to experiencing a short circuit, which in turn could lead to temperatures rising out of spec, which in turn could lead to fire breaking out. And as a short term response, Ford is telling affected owners not to charge the traction battery.

This leads me to some questions:
1. Is it the act of charging or the fact of being charged up to a high level that increases the risk of fire, or both?

2.If the act of charging increases fire risk, does the rate of charge (Level 1 v 2) affect the fire risk?

3.If it is a high state of charge that is the primary risk for fire, is that risk linear with state of charge, exponential, or something else?

I ask these questions not out of idle curiosity, but out of a desire to assess degree of risk. Different people have different risk tolerance, with some people saying that no increased risk of fire is worth it. I don’t think we can rely on Ford’s statement that we shouldn’t charge the battery at all to be useful in assessing risk. For very logical and sensible reasons, Ford is going to be extremely conservative when they make statements about what owner should do.

 

Total risk is calculated on a matrix of probability and severity. For example, if the the worst case scenario is the cell vents and the battery fails benignly, if it is a fairly common occurrence, the risk would be medium at most. If there is a chance of fire, but it's a one a trillion chance, the risk would probably be low.

Example risk matrix here

What is a 5x5 Risk Matrix & How to Use it? | SafetyCulture

Learn what a 5x5 risk assessment matrix is, its importance, examples, and how to use it in simplifying risk assessments.

safetyculture.com

Now for your questions. The following is purely speculation on my part based on my own assessment:
1) Higher state of charge affects the severity of the event. Charging (or any abusive condition) can increase the probability of the event
2) Higher rate of charge probably increases probability.
3) I don't have that data.

 

Regardless of the technicalities involved, I believe Ford is only interested in liability issues (covering their asses) otherwise they would have offered gas coupons and battery exchanges as they did in Europe

 

I honestly think Ford does not know the real "risk". I am sure they are gathering more information but at this point, my feeling is that they don't have enough data yet. I agree, "Do not plug in" meme probably came from their lawyers not from engineers.

And if we can all contribute to be one of data point by keep plugging in and see what happens, then their real risk calculation may improve a bit. LOL

 

I also have a ‘23. The first two times I had to bring the car in for battery problems (would not charge) the dealer had no clue how to begin to find the problem. Your letter was much more generous than I would have written. To say I am disappointed in Ford is not even close to how I feel about my whole PHEV experience.

 

I own a 2023 Escape PHEV and am extremely disappointed with this fiasco.
We bought it because we had a superb experience with our 2017 Fusion Energi. That car was awesome. I understand that later Fusion models had similar battery issues and I think Ford did a buyback

 

Here’s more interesting Samsung recall information. Looks like Jeep is the only ones that have had issues and fires in the US. Ford and Audi haven’t had any fires and their venting issues have been in Europe. The chronology ( page 4) is where the best information is

 

Well I went ahead and traded my 2022 Ford Escape PHEV for a Toyota RAV4. This last recall concerning the battery and were suppose to wait for the 'FIX'....I have had it. Their fixes seem to be software programs, that don't allow one to continue driving the car and to run it on battery if you have a charge. The last recall is about fires and charging the battery.... It's been real.

 

I hear you. I am going to a Chevy dealer tomorrow to see what trade deal they will give me for much nicer (and less expensive) Equinox EV.

 

Anyone know if charging the car anyway (even just to 80% like some have suggested) in spite of the recall memo would void the warranty? Shouldn't, right?

 

We are really disappointed with Ford. I think they may have recently sent a software update which limits charging to 85%. (I noticed this came up on my screen.) We spent excessively more to get the plug in hybrid. So now we can’t charge and still wonder if our battery is one of the “fire prone” ones….? We are LONG TIME Ford buyers and definitely feel Ford needs to reimburse all affected PHEV owners for extra gas purchase. Not only that, Ford needs to replace all batteries that are potentially faulty. Limiting the amount of charge capacity with a “software” update is NOT a fix. I’m ready to trade this lemon if Ford doesn’t make things right. As most of you probably agree… any time something major (like a new hybrid battery) needs to be done at the dealership, we are at the mercy of the technicians doing the work. I personally have NEVER felt comfortable with anything done by a dealership - even an oil change. I’ve had experiences where I’ve requested full synthetic, and have been lied to about using the full synthetic oil. Let me know what you all think Ford needs to do… Thanks

 

You think they may have or did they? More details about this “software update limiting charging to 85% “ are needed if it is what you think it. Not aware of any updates of this nature. Hard for me to respond to your question when there’s incomplete information.

 

Because it showed on my screen that Charging was now limited to 85%. I didn’t take a picture of my screen and there’s no way to replay screen history. Obviously Ford is minimizing risk of battery failure by not allowing full charging. (Although they are telling everyone to not charge at all.)

 

So you can only charge to 85% ?? And you’ve actually done it repeatedly??

 

Escape PHEV is always limited to ~85% charge even though the FordPass and the GOM says it goes to 100%. A 14.4 kWh battery that reads empty, 0%, 0 miles will never accept more than 11 kWh of electricity. It will also never discharge to a real world 0% because it couldn't come back. Do the math and let us know how it works out.

 

I still have been getting 100% SOC so no change in SOC.

Paul